Comments on: Good Poets Borrow, Great Poets Steal…

By: swimanog

swimanog — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:03:36 +0000

I saw somewhere somehow (or did I surmise) unfortunately I cannot remember where that T.S. Eliot borrowed heavily – raided it seemed at the time -from contemporary free verse poets of his time for his own style. Quoting Spenser is fine, and taking from contemporary poets is probably also fine, as long as you don’t set out to cover your tracks and with his notes at the end of The Waste Land I think that is what cunning old T.S set out to do and did. But the juncture of influence with plagiarism is a funny thing. I saw a section Shakespeare once that seemed to be the source of Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow..Really I don’t/can’t blame him for any of that, just for the cunning careerism that went along with is inherent in all of it..While at Faber & Faber (1936 was it?) refusing Joyce on ‘Ulysses’ (ah the competition for the Nobel..and how T.S won on that, but how could he do it? Might as well ask: how could Hitler?)..Later refusing Animal Farm.. Was T.S. really a serial destroyer of other writers (the competition) for his own self-aggrandisement? He sent his wife to the loonies after she came up with the title to The Waste Land..after her father gave T.S. his initial financial security..mmm…Have a look at my novel ‘Uncorrected Proof’ on this, a novel about influence and plagiarism, a subject that dare not speak its name in some quaters..The novel’s now with http://www.spdbooks.org in America

By: Mike Douglass

Mike Douglass — Sun, 11 Oct 2009 21:16:28 +0000

Thank you, this was very informative! I have wondered for many years where this quote steamed from. I do think many people have used this quote at a license to steal for many years… T.S. Eliot’s paragraph sums up the evolution of art beautifully. It is not a stealing of ideas but a cumulative process. I found an other article that uses this concept in a different manner, but still in a very effective way.

http://andrewmello.blogspot.com/2009/10/pablo-picasso-is-not-asshole.html

By: Chuck Evans

Chuck Evans — Tue, 15 Sep 2009 05:03:03 +0000

By the way, it isn’t surprising that that “quote” can upset a lot of artists. They don’t get the distinction between “stealing” in Eliot’s sense and “stealing” as in theft of property. They are either upset at the thought of any artist finding inspiration in another’s work, or they misuse the “quote” to excuse plagiarism.

But Eliot knew the distinction. One can find an idea and breathe new life into it: One can, shall we paraphrase, “stir dull roots with spring rain”.

By: Chuck Evans

Chuck Evans — Tue, 15 Sep 2009 04:56:37 +0000

Hi, Nancy. Thank you for clearing up the matter. I was just out looking for the attribution for the paraphrased “quote” and found your site. I was in the middle of a posting on another forum, and I really wanted to just post “Good artists borrow; great artists steal!” and then attribute it to someone, but your research makes it plain I can’t just do that. Instead, my posting was kind of rambling, but I did refer folks back to your site, in case they are as anal retentive as I am. See: http://www.oldschoolguitar.com/board/showthread.php?p=23175&posted=1#post23175.

Have a great day.

By: Anthony

Anthony — Tue, 18 Aug 2009 15:07:21 +0000

Nancy, thank-you, this post was indeed very helpful. What led me to your site was an article in today’s Globe and Mail. “That Eliot line” [sic.] was [mis-]used in an interview between the reporter and filmmaker Quentin Tarantino:

“For example, knowing that his films have been both heavily influenced and widely influential, I toss out that old T.S. Eliot hook – “Good artists borrow, great artists steal” – to see if he’ll take a nibble. Not a chance. Tarantino smiles, recognizing the quote, but he ain’t biting: “Oh, I’ve always liked the sound of that Eliot line, but I’ve never put it under the microscope.”

Thankfully, you have.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/arts/tarantino-a-superstar-cinema-nerd/article1252003/

By: Patrick O'Donnell

Patrick O'Donnell — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 19:01:55 +0000

Scholarship is its own reward but it can be shared with others. Best wishes.

By: kr4y

kr4y — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 18:12:03 +0000

Nice post!

I know the quote as:

“Good composers borrow, great composers steal.”
Igor Stravinsky

I guess this would have been around the same time as TS Elliot? Maybe it was just a zeitgeist thing in the artist communities of the time.

Ofcourse all artists borrow and steal to a certain degree, you could just call it influence or culture.

By: Freedom to Steal « The Committee of Public Safety

Freedom to Steal « The Committee of Public Safety — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 23:39:57 +0000

[...] no one actually ever said this, the point is true, for nations if not poets. The road to greatness is paved with theft. Moreover, [...]

By: Kelly Carter

Kelly Carter — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 14:42:17 +0000

Thanks for clarifying the facts around this quote (found in various wordings). Still, I think the essence of the quote is not outrageous or offensive at all: We all build upon the work of people (e.g., artists, thinkers) who precede us (we all “stand on the shoulders of giants”). If we “borrow,” we do it quite poorly, adding little or no additional value. If we “steal,” we “make it our own” by adding something truly original, truly inventive, truly significant. It’s not about theft in the sense of plagiarism. Plagiarism is more like “borrowing” but claiming it is your own. Yes, it’s confusing because the terms “borrowing” and “stealing” are being used in different way than the usual. Isn’t language fun?!

By: Tom Jirak

Tom Jirak — Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:24:35 +0000

Thanka for the research. The issue has been on my mind a bit more since the flareup over the Obama poster. Just when does a derivative work become original? Was an artist inspited by his/her model or Rembrandt?

It seems to me that all human progress occurred because of creative ’stealing’. We all stand on the sholders of the greats who came before us. If we expected technology to be invented anew by each generation, insteaed of creatively ’stealing’ from the generation that came before, we would still be improving our seating from rocks to small logs and discovering that cooked meat tasted much better than raw meat. We readily accept creative stealing of technoligy; why are the arts any different? T. S Elliot was observant, wise, and, most of all, honest. I don’t think he needed to point out each instance of creative stealing.